Setup And Listener Challenge

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hello, listeners. Um, on this week's episode of You Can Call Me Karen, we are breaking down a beloved movie from our uh high school years called the last dance. So you will join us on this journey of all of our memories and love that surrounds this movie and also how we feel now reflecting on the racial undertones and the uh subliminal messaging, I will say, around what is good and bad. And as you can imagine, how that aligns with what is right and wrong. And so it just makes us uh see the world a little bit different and appreciate the messaging that we had received growing up and realize that we need to watch film in a much different way than uh than we used to. We also have a fun little game for our listeners. So we do not tell you the date of when we recorded this, but we do give you some indications of the date. So for those that can guess the date accurately, or I should say our first listener who can accurately guess the date and comment that on social media, um, either TikTok or Instagram page, we will be sending you a piece of merch. So listen carefully. Um, let us know what you think, and we will let you all know when you get it right. Thank you and enjoy the show.

SPEAKER_05 1:57

Okay, Karen's, I need y'all to know that this episode started the same way all of my best and worst decisions start on TikTok at midnight alone. Today we're going back to 2001 and discussing a movie we all loved, and even one that Karen saw. We're talking about what it was actually doing the whole time, and we're asking the question nobody asked back then. Who was really paying the price for this love story? So, co-host, are you ready to do it and put your back into it? Always. Yes, hello, we're back for another episode of You Can Call Me Karen. Hi, Steph. Hi, Karen. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 2:40

Wonderful.

SPEAKER_05 2:42

Hey, everything is great in the world today.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

Always.

SPEAKER_05 2:52

Do you guys want to elaborate on your sarcasm? No, not more at all. Keep our audience guessing about what date it is and what's actually happened.

unknown 3:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

Oh, should we really? I would love for the audience to guess the date.

unknown 3:11

Great.

SPEAKER_05 3:11

All right. You heard them listeners. Note the time, note the date. It's a mystery.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

We'll send you some merch if you guessed the date. I love that.

SPEAKER_05 3:23

Great. I don't know how they're gonna do that because we're providing zero context, but it's a fun little game. I dig it.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

I love it. It's the morning, and we want you to guess the date.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

And the sun is literally shining, but that's about it.

SPEAKER_05 3:40

Not here in New Jersey, but I did notice it on your sleeve, Karen, and I was like, wow, that is beautiful little reflection of a ray of sunlight.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

Yeah, and then I closed the curtains. Darn. Okay.

Karen Of The Week Stories

SPEAKER_05 3:54

So before we get into this episode, um, because this one is going to take us places, we need to know. We do need to know. Who are you calling, Karen?

SPEAKER_01 4:04

You want me to go first, Steph?

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Sure. I mean, I'm ready too, though.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

We're both ready. I love this. I think I'll kick us off. So my Karen of the Week. I can't believe I forgot to tell you guys this when it first happened. But we moved into our new house like four or five months ago. It's been four or five months. It was like right before Thanksgiving. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's what it was. So it was like right before Thanksgiving. Oh, there's a clue.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

There you go. Actually, my my Karen is also gonna give you clues.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

Yeah, it was right before Thanksgiving. We like unpacked. Um, and you know, when you're unpacking, you make a lot of boxes and paper and stuff that you have to discard. The in in Chicago, they have this like recyclable box program. So we didn't have that much, but we had enough. And right before we we were leaving to visit my family for Thanksgiving, we sent an email. There's like an email server chain thing with this street that we live on to just say, like, you know, we're new, we don't want to piss everybody off in the alley. Um, is there any etiquette about us like disposing of this, you know, stuff for moving? We don't want it to all just sit and collect. And a couple people responded and were basically like, no, it's the alley. Do what you gotta do. We all know how it goes when you move in. Fast forward, we get back from um Thanksgiving, and in our mailbox is like a letter. It doesn't have a stamp or anything, so someone put it in there, right? Oh, geez. It's so funny. So I open it up, and it is a uh like a computer type letter that is man like printed and manually signed, and it is three pages long type.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

And it's um it's from a neighbor behind us, and it starts it starts off with like, I know you just moved in and I understand that you sent an email, but unfortunately, I was not included on that email. And if I had been, you know, this is what I would have said, and basically goes on to explain that like if you put garbage in such and such way, then the garbage people don't pick it up, and she came home to an unpleasant surprise, and she's a little bit older, and so she has a hard time, you know, like manipulating these garbage cans, and it went on for three pages. She provided links to the Chicago like waste department website. She she copied and pasted all of the items that you can put in the recycle bin. And then she left her phone number and her address in case we wanted to discuss this matter further. Jesus. Wow.

SPEAKER_05 7:17

What a winch.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

And also the way that she admits from the very start that we had actually proactively reached out and then goes on to criticize us. I was like, we were told this was fine. And also our email is for we we have like a very small little block. And so there's, I don't know, 20-ish homes. So everyone just has everyone's contact information. They have a group email in case there's things that the street needs to address. And so she lives behind, so she's not on the same street, she wouldn't be on this email. I can't know what I can't just make up information in my brain and know that this woman isn't included on email chain. I'm like, listen, Karen, I know you haven't moved in 49 years, but this is I'm sorry. Like we were doing our best to be good neighbors.

SPEAKER_05 8:13

And also, like you missed your chance. Like you missed your chance to tell us this information. It happened, it's done as you noted. We reached out, you weren't on the email, so like give it a rest.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Like give it a rest. Like she has nothing better to do than type a three-page paper.

SPEAKER_05 8:32

Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

That print up.

SPEAKER_05 8:34

That part.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

Also that part of like it was wild.

SPEAKER_05 8:38

Not even just typing it up with your like stream of consciousness, but like going to other websites and like copying and pasting the requirements, or like it was crazy.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

It was clear to me that like we live very different lives. Even if I wanted to do something like that, I wouldn't have the time.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Like I just you would think to sell yourself, I really want to type a three-page message to someone, but I don't have time. I don't have time.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Oh, so that. So now I know she's back there, and we have to like awkwardly wave to each other when we see them and when we see her in the alley. It's really nice.

SPEAKER_05 9:23

I want to like for anybody who might be listening who thinks that this what they did is acceptable, I just want to offer an alternative response. Like, if you still needed to tell your neighbors this, the simplified version would be hey, I wasn't on the email. Here's my name and number. Can you reach out to me when you have a moment? I just want to connect the end and just do it face to face. Like if she really if she really had to do that. I know, I mean, well, we don't know this woman. I'm I'm not saying she would never. I I'm I'm not saying like, you know, obviously this person is deplorable. I'm offering an alternative to people who feel as though this is like such a big deal. Like when we're getting to know our neighbors, like perhaps a face-to-face conversation is the better way to initially meet somebody. Tell us what's who you calling Karen this week.

SPEAKER_02 10:31

So, um, see, here comes another hint for guessing the date, friends. So this week, this was something that was in the news. There was um an award show. Anyone know where I'm headed with this?

SPEAKER_05 10:47

Is this about Germany? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

I was like, it's not about Germany. So there was uh an award show for BAFTA awards. So there two actors from the widely acclaimed movie Sinners were presenting the first word of the night. Um, one being Michael B. Jordan, the other being Delroy. I can't remember his last name, I'm so sorry. And um, while they were presenting, there was a man in the audience with Tourette's who blurted the N-word, and Michael B. Jordan and is it Delroy Linda? Yes, I think handled the moment with Grace, continued with the presenting of the award. Afterwards, the um Alan Cummings was like, there's a gentleman with Tourette's in the audience, he might have heard offensive language, and basically like, sorry if anyone was offended. Which that bothered me, but that's not who's the Karen. The Karen of this situation to me goes to the BBC because it turned out that the recording was not live and they had a two-hour delay, and so they should have just cut the N-word out of the broadcast, but they did not. Meanwhile, there was there was another person who went up on stage and said free Palestine, and they edited that out, but they did not edit out the N-word. Yes. And so, you know, this is not even calling the gentleman who said the N-word with Tourette's Karen. That's a whole nother argument and a whole nother conversation. Um, because I read a lot about it throughout the week, and you know, it was it just comes down to two things can be true. Like you can have a disability that causes you to say harmful things, but the harm still exists and an apology is owed. And so, and I think it took a minute for an apology to even ever come, though I do do believe one was made. But when you as an organization don't take the time to edit out harmful language from your broadcast when you had the opportunity to do so, you are a Karen.

SPEAKER_05 12:55

Yes. 100%. And to your point, you recognized that something else was not going to be uh what you wanted to at broadcasted. So why not that? It it really just shows the centering of whiteness.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

The centering of whiteness for sure.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

I'm going even more, maybe even more cynical with it, but it feels like they knew it would get attention and increase ratings. And so they don't care about the people that they're harming in the process if it means they're gonna make more money. Like we here we are sitting here talking about it. We would have never known it happened otherwise. Uh, and we wouldn't pay attention to the BAFTAs otherwise. So they don't care about the harm that it causes people if it makes them more money.

SPEAKER_05 13:48

Yes, it's all trash. It is trash. Um, and just more division to be had on you know, social media, more conversation, more people to like claim aside, and it just creates so much more chaos as then rather than being just like responsible and accountable, and we can't rely on these larger networks and systems to do that anymore, and that's where I think people are like waking up to. Yeah, despicable.

SPEAKER_02 14:24

And one more thing, the something that came to my mind is that like hip-hop artists who like as soon as they open their mouth, they like bleep almost everything, and you miss like all the favorite parts of your song, yeah. And they may not have even said they may have said one bad word in that whole blank segment that they like completely bleep. But you know, this horrible word was said out loud and you let it play on the air. Like, come on, man.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Get the I didn't realize the delay was two hours, too. Two hours plenty of time.

SPEAKER_05 14:58

Not to mention, like, how loud did they have to be to that everyone could hear that? They're not gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

They had this person, I think, sitting right up front. It was like maybe someone was playing a character of that person, yeah. And so they had them there as like a guest, but yeah, all of it weirdly seems a little intentional. Like, yeah, I don't know why that's a known risk you're taking.

SPEAKER_05 15:26

I was gonna say, all during not my black history month.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

Um actually, I before we we go, I know we have to to go on, but there was I saw this um thing on threads. Uh oh, it was it was Dion Cole who hosted the NAACP awards, and he made a joke about it in his intro. And he was like, uh, just want to say a white man with Tourette. He's like, maybe uh just know your audience. Um see if there's anything you can do about it. It was just funny how he put it. Like, it was so funny. He's like, it might not go how you might think it.

SPEAKER_05 16:12

Oh man. All right. Well, that was, yeah. Speaking of unhinged, that person that is all unhinged and diabolical. And those are your Karen's of the week, and let's just be better people.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

You just heard our Karen stories, but we can't be the only ones. If you've had a Karen or Chad encounter or confessional, you've been a Karen yourself. We'd love to hear from you. Wherever you listen, click on the link in our show notes and text us your Karen stories.

SPEAKER_05 16:42

Okay, so let's set the scene.

Save The Last Dance Plot Recap

SPEAKER_05 16:45

The year is 2001. Save the Last Dance premieres and makes 27.5 million its opening weekend. It sits at number one for two weeks. Julia Styles wins MTV's best kiss and best female performance. There is a best fight scene trophy. This movie was everywhere, and we loved it. We genuinely loved it. For those who need a quick reminder of the plot of the film, let's look at this overview of the movie by Rob Anderson on Instagram to Anchor Essen.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

I just re-watched Save the Last Dance. This movie needs to be studied. Sarah is a dancer in high school, and her mom dies in a car accident on the same day as her failed Juilliard audition. So she quits dance, moves to the south side of Chicago to live with her estranged father and go to an all-black high school. And she's got like three months left of her high school career. So it doesn't make any sense. Chanel sees Sarah at the first day of school and she's like, oh my god, this white girl is not gonna survive. Sarah's like, oh my god, what is that? Hip hop, you don't say. In gym class, Sarah shows off her dancing skills on the balance beam that every inner city school has. So Chanil's like, where'd you get those moves? And Sarah's like, I used to be a dancer, not a big deal. So Chanel invites her to steps, an invite-only nightclub for serious dancers. Also coming to steps is Chanel's brother, Derek, who tells Sarah that she better be prepared for some like hardcore dancing. This is the dancing at the club. This is the members-only invite-only dance club. Like, you have to be a serious dancer for this. You have to be a jabber walkie to be here, okay? Derek's first dancing with Sarah, who's very white, and everybody knows it. It was at this point where I was like, okay, who actually wrote this? This man, this is the guy. And now it all makes sense. Then Derek gives Sarah hip-hop lessons, which include learning how to cripwalk and sitting in a chair. Then Sarah does one of these, and he's like, Where'd you learn how to do that? She's like, I used to be a dancer, I don't want to talk about it. She spends this whole movie begging for people to ask her about dance. Derek convinces her to dance again and audition for Juilliard again, and he is gonna help with the hip-hop. I don't know. Maybe don't audition. Then she returns to the club. I can't. She returns back to the club, blacker than ever. Look at her go. They're chanting their names. Sarah auditions for Juilliard and she falls again and has to start over. But Derek, who has been watching from the back of the auditorium, is like, not my baby girl. So he runs up on stage and tells her he believes in her. Again, she does hip-hop for Juilliard. I bet they've never seen that before. They are so impressed. They're like, she is so urban. She's like, wait till you see what I do with the chair. You didn't see that coming, did you? They're like, oh, that girl is good. Look at those gang signs. Welcome to Juilliard. Immediately admits her to Juilliard. He's like, I know talent when I see it, and it fulfills our diversity quota.

SPEAKER_05 20:03

I feel like that was a great recap. Like hip hop, you don't say.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

I am dying laughing. What's so funny is we I loved that movie.

SPEAKER_05 20:18

Hold on, hold on, hold on. Let me finish because I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you guys about this. Okay. So uh Roger Ebert, one of the greatest film critics of all time, reviewed that movie and said, quote unquote, it begins with standard material but doesn't settle for it. And that the characters were, quote, more complicated than we expect. Even the smartest person in the room watched this movie through Sarah's eyes and didn't blink. And I want us to sit in that for one second before we tear it down. So that's why I'm like, just pause for one second. Because I think the fact that we loved this movie is important. It tells us something about where we were as a culture, as a country, in terms of talking about race in the late 90s and early 2000s. We thought we were being progressive. We thought an interracial love story was enough. So I feel like after doing this research, what stood out to me is the movie that I thought I watched and the movie that I actually watched. And that's where I want us to start today. So now, Karen, um, we have a lot to go through. So keep it short, you guys, but tell us what you loved about this, the story that this movie told, and how you felt when you first watched it.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

I think maybe I loved it so much because I danced. And so I was like, here's an entire really popular movie about something I love. And it made it it may have been as surface as that.

SPEAKER_02 21:45

I felt like there was like a fearlessness about Sarah. Like I felt like she was not really afraid to like say what she was meant to say, like in a in an environment where she felt uncomfortable. And I I liked that she like went like just kind of stood her ground and just was who she was. I thought she was cool. I thought Sarah was cool for I um same thing with as Karen, like it was about dance and she was dancing, and I you know, I liked you know that dance that solo dance scene. I know we're gonna talk about it differently in a minute, but it it was different and it was like unique and it just felt it felt fresh at the time. Like I I remember loving it, and I loved that choreographer, Fatima Robinson, like one of my favorite choreographers. Um, so you know, she literally could do no wrong to me at the time.

SPEAKER_05 22:48

Yeah. I feel like in some of my research, I didn't I didn't fact check it. It was just like a quick thing, and I can't remember where I saw it. But was Fatima Robinson a choreographer for Michael Jackson at one point?

SPEAKER_02 23:03

The reason I knew her the way that like I know her is because she choreographed for OEA.

SPEAKER_05 23:09

Save the Last Dance didn't exist in a vacuum. It's part of a whole mini-era of 2000s films that like brought dance to cinema. We have Step Up, You Got Served, Center Stage, Honey. Uh, Bring It On isn't really dance, but I guess you know, we can group it in there. And we loved all of it. So here's a question I want to put to you guys for you know, a follow-up to what you guys were saying about loving it for dance. Of all those movies, Karen, have you seen

What Makes A Dance Movie Great

SPEAKER_05 23:40

them? She's saying no. She doesn't want to admit it out loud because we just had a group chat about how she loves teenage movies.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

I said, don't test me.

SPEAKER_05 23:51

And we're like, okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

Wait, Karen, which of these on the list haven't you seen? I'm looking at it right now and I've seen center scene.

SPEAKER_05 24:02

Didn't we watch Honey together as like a dance team at Breeze Place?

SPEAKER_02 24:08

I don't think that was there.

SPEAKER_05 24:11

Okay. All right. Well, you've seen enough dance movies. So what do we think actually makes a dance movie great? Like what separates exceptional dance movies from just fine?

SPEAKER_02 24:24

Well, we all know how we felt about Honey. And we did not feel good, we did not feel good about Honey in its in its prime.

SPEAKER_05 24:33

Bill?

SPEAKER_02 24:34

And I really feel like what see, I think that's the difference between Jessica Alba and Julius Styles. Like, Jessica Alba was not authentic. Like, and there was like a realness about Sarah.

SPEAKER_05 24:51

Um, you're going hard for Sarah stuff.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

I listen, I like Sarah. I know. I liked Sarah.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

Like as our as our resident white lady, I have to say that I was I felt like you do feel nervous by Sarah now. Like because I do I'm talking 2001, Stephanie No, then I was like, oh white lady, get it together. Like you've heard rap music before. Like, what is happening? They made her the nerdiest all the way till the end.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

Like you didn't feel like she got a little bit of flavor in her life by the end.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Well, it was like choreographed by white people flavor. Like you could tell, not and not choreographed in the in dance terms. Like, I mean the things she said, the words.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

Like it was so cringe. I don't know. Honey was terrible, but yes.

SPEAKER_05 25:53

Wait, so say a little bit more about why honey was terrible and why how we feel about it. Because I don't I think you kind of glossed over that.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

Um like Jessica Alba, beautiful lady, uh fine actress, uh not a very good dancer, and they really used her a lot dancing, and she was supposed to be this like phenom, and she just did not rise. And I bring that up to say, like, I think really quality dancing is what makes a good dance movie good. And so, like, the when I use I saw you got served, like the choreography and move dancing in that movie, that like the acting actually wasn't that great in that movie, but the dancing was lit, it was so good, true, it was and had real true, well-known cruise like dancing. It was just so well done, which is why the acting wasn't good, exactly, which is fine.

SPEAKER_05 26:54

See, yeah, which is fine if you're in like if you're in the Karen. What do you think makes an exceptional movie? I saw it for a dance, like an exceptional dance. Not that we really, you know, think your movie critique is because you've only seen so few.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Well, my first my first thought was the quality of dance. That was my first thought. Like, um, well, looking at this list, center stage, I felt like the main character was actually, I think, kind of the weakest dancer, but they had legit ballerinas. And by the way, ballerinos, which is actually a term you can use for male ballet dancers, which I just learned. Um, yeah, and so being able to watch a film with questionable acting for sure, that demonstrates beautiful dance was so exciting. Like, I remember in high school with all my dance team friends watching that movie on repeat and just getting so fired up about it.

SPEAKER_05 28:02

So one of the things that you guys are saying that I would add to this um is the music. Like, I just remember the music on center stage really just I didn't realize you could choreograph to that. Like I didn't realize that you could like hear music like that and choreograph an ensemble like that. And I was I feel like I'm really drawn to that.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Yeah, yeah, like ballet to Michael Jackson was so yeah, I think be beyond its time, which was so exciting.

SPEAKER_05 28:32

In this article I looked at by Flavorwire called All the Right Moves, Dance Movie Types and Tropes, it states that in a truly exceptional dance movie, the dance routines aren't just spectacle, they carry the story. They communicate something essential about the characters, the relationship, and the tension. The dance is the dialogue. So, by that measure, does Save the Last Dance actually pass the test? Or is Sarah's final audition more about her growth than anything the dance itself is saying? I think about this question a couple of different ways, but I I I want to hear what you guys have to say about that.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

When you say like that it like should communicate something about the characters or the relationships, it made me think of like that the club scene when she was wearing the pink tank top and was like doing the partner dance with um and Derek. And I'm assuming that was supposed to like show her. I don't know what. I don't know what, but I feel like that was maybe a scene that was intended to do that, like relay some information about their relationship that they must have been spending time together, looking at what their energy, their harmony, like their harmony, like you know, where did this come from? Oh well, we've been seeing each other actually, it's more secret, you know. Like, um, and I'm assuming then I I'm I'm trying to, I guess I'm trying to get back to 2001, Stephanie, to understand why I was not appalled by the ending dance as I am now. Like, why wasn't I appalled? And like the statement that here is like was the final audition more about her growth? And so, like, for her to have moved from this like rigid, uptight person to someone who's willing to try something new for her audition and you know, just basically I don't know, release her inhibitions, feel the rain on her skin. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

Like I well, uh when you were saying stuff like put myself back into my 17-year-old self or whatever, I I felt at the time like it was very triumphant, like she had overcome grief and trauma, and um, you know, being put in a situation that was completely foreign to her and like overcame all of that to um audition for Juilliard and get in on this with such a stellar dance. But yeah, because that happens in real life. Um, but I do think at the time, if you recall, and we talked about this on a prior episode as well, dance was not what it is today. So to do a ballet-based Juilliard tryout with I think it was pink, right? Would have been, you know, earth shattering for the dance world at the time. Now we look at it and we're like, oh my god, there's so much cooler shit that's being done. At the time, that was pretty leading edge, you know. So I do think in the context of that moment in time, it was pretty epic. I do also think that we all as dancers watched that and said, She clearly is not a trained dancer, she her turnout is lacking, she does that little thing and like sickles her foot. And it's like, you know, we saw that. We were willing to give it a pass because the story was.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

Like it would cut like it would cut in and out between her and like the the true dancer, the body double or whatever. The body double the devil opinion to Poncha Arabesque was hot mez express. Yes. Twas hot and we said it's in. We didn't. We all knew it. We were like, it's okay.

SPEAKER_05 32:31

But she also did claim in interviews that she trained for that role.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

So she probably did, she probably did have to train.

SPEAKER_05 32:38

I believe she did. Also that can't do that. Um, so well what we're gonna move on. I'm not gonna um talk about this article, but I did find an article that pulled up like 30 essential dance movies um from like, you know, dance movies that have, to your point, Karen, of like we haven't seen this on screen, but um some of the top five ones are not um later on, like the step-ups and the save the last dance, they're um singing in the rain, dirty dancing, like they're OG movies. So um I really just wanted to like put that in context of like how are we, like, were we really, really moved by this movie because of the dance, um, or because of you know, the plot, which is questionable, or because of the interracial merit, like like what of it that like really made us be like, oh, this is like an amazing dance movie that doesn't even make like the top 10 list on this um 30th central dance movies list that uh Rotten Tomatoes came out with. So, anyway, something for us to plug into our show notes for our uh listeners to read about. But I want to read something else from that same article because I believe this was an element of the movie that I played into the white supremacy masking itself as progression, but really it was appropriation at its

Ballet Versus Hip Hop Stereotypes

SPEAKER_05 34:06

finest. So, Karen, um, can you read this little blurb for our listeners from that piece?

SPEAKER_01 34:13

There are still some things that the film leaves implicit, the most obvious of which is the notion that ballet is inherently white and feminine, practiced by uptight and feminine people, that it's a form of rigid artifice. Hip-hop, on the other hand, a black art form with origins in street and social dancing, is depicted as inherently loose, cool, masculine, and real. These are stereotypes that were in place in 2001 and that have been reinforced by films in which uptight white girls have to learn to loosen up and get down, and they persist today, making ballet and blackness seem antithetical, especially for black girls and women who aspire to learn ballet. So when you hear that, what comes up for you?

SPEAKER_02 35:03

Oh my god, so many things. Um so, like growing up dancing, my genres that I did primarily was ballet and jazz, and I loved ballet, and I definitely didn't have like the stereotypical body type for it, but I loved it. And um, yeah, ballet was my thing. I remember there was this girl who I danced with who she was not very nice to me in particular, but just not a very nice girl, like and I felt like the culture back then was just so different. Like, I felt like girls could be like fix your you're in the wrong spot, and you would like it wasn't people so sensitive. And so I for her, for me and her, I just kind of chalked her up, but she's just not really nice, whatever. She's in my team, but I'll ignore her. But one day in ballet, she was asking um our ballet teacher, who this ballet teacher I was not very close with. My favorite ballet teacher had um taken another job, and so this is like a new ballet teacher, and I didn't really love her class. Like, I loved ballet enough to not care, but like she was not my favorite. And she asked my ballet teacher, she was like, Um, when we're doing arabesque or something like that, would it be better if like we didn't really have like a butt, like or something to that effect? And this ballet teacher responded basically yes. Like if you yeah, if you were like had not much of a butt, it would be easier something something super stupid. Um and I was like standing like right next to her, and the girl literally was like, like not much of a butt, like like turned on, like you know, and yeah, she just kind of like was sending it my way, but asking the teacher, but making sure that I heard the question. And she was really not a nice girl. And I remember like that was one of those moments um when I was like this ballet teacher. She I I knew that there was something about her that I didn't like, but she didn't give me much attention because it was almost like she didn't know how to give me corrections and like help me grow because my body type wasn't something she knew how to even address, you know, like or and um and I can then add that she had her own issues with her body and she suffered she ended up having trouble with anorexia. She had a baby while she was um teaching and like was eating very much while she was pregnant and stuff. So all of what she was saying out loud was really her own shit, and it had nothing to do with me. And I feel like I I figured that out while I was there, so like it's not like something I carried with me. I figured out like, oh, she is struggling with her body and she's gonna project that on me. And I I don't know how I figured that out at a young age, but I did. Yeah, I so yeah, like I really feel I I don't know, I just loved dance too much to let nonsense like get in the way. But those are just some moments like in my training where I felt black and not felt other. And I feel like now I love that there's like there's like an Instagram page that I follow, like uh brown girls to do ballet, and um just like yeah, no, and like I don't know. I just feel like there there's an effort for black um dancers to be part of the ballet community, if not leading it. And so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

Yeah. What about you, Karen? Um, well, this whole conversation has made me realize how all of these movies from the 90s that focus on dance have this like black versus white element to it. Like even in um center stage, which is mostly white, there's one black dancer who's Zoe Day Chanel whose name is currently like totally speaking. Thank you, Zoe De Chanel, who's like gone on to be um Zoe, um not Day Chanel. Zoe Saldana, uh Zoe Saldana, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. Saldana, thank you. Incredible. Yeah, who's gone on to have like an insane career, probably the only one in that film who's done anything with her career. Um, but there's always the conversation in that movie as well about like the underlying tone being she's different, you know. And so, anyways, I guess I completely agree with this um quote. It's it sucks, but I think it's a perfect summary of the way that we classify the different cultures of dance and like who is supposed to be.

SPEAKER_05 40:08

Alvin Aly had to start its own company because black bodies weren't even allowed in the ballet, you know. Um, I think about uh that episode on Fresh Prince where Vivi Um you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, yes. I actually do know what you're talking about, right? Justice for dark-skinned black girls in a ballet, and like her lines are like beautiful, and like she just nails that routine so much. It goes back to like that that conversation too of the last question of like you know, um, of like it's uh about the characters, the relationship, the tension, the dance is the dialogue. Like in that dance with Aunt Viv, like she was saying something in that number. And you know, and then Steph, do the part that you love at the end where she comes out. Oh, yes. Steph loves the snap at the end to the like youngins who are like, I've been.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

You can't have to say a word.

SPEAKER_05 41:19

Now let's get into it because here's what I realized re-watching this movie as a

When The Movie Centers Whiteness

SPEAKER_05 41:23

grown woman. The movie knew. The writers put the real critique in Nikki's mouth and Chanel's mouth. Nikki says, White girls like you are the problem. Chanel tells Sarah that Nikki's reasons weren't wrong, even if the assault on her was. And then the movie tells us to ignore all that and root for Sarah anyway. They did this by baking in the following tropes into the movie, like fish out of water, Sarah walks into a black school and gets centered immediately, art unites, race divides, dance magically solves systemic racism. Good girl saves the bad boy, Sarah pulls Derek away from his community towards his future. The underdog audition, Sarah wins Jilliard using black dance she learned from black people. So, Steph, can you read this passage from why Save the Last Dance and other Millennial Teen movies are now on my shit list by Ashley Flash Gordon?

SPEAKER_02 42:16

The black characters were right about why Derek's actions were harmful to the community because blacks don't have the privilege of being individuals, so this matters. Completely right. The writers knew these were complications blacks faced and used this platform to tell black America that our feelings about our oppression had no merit. When Derek's ex Nikki told Sarah that white girls like her were the issue and ended up fighting her, Chanel told Sarah that Nikki was wrong for assaulting her, but her reasoning, black girls are tired of fighting so hard to be seen, heard, accepted, loved, and a white girl can swoop in and take everything from under them, no questions asked. Behind it wasn't wrong. And victim white Sarah's feelings got hurt. She was just trying to fit in, she was just trying to be loved. Derek choosing her over all of the black women wasn't her fault. She wasn't responsible for the system of privilege white America created for white women or the negative beliefs we have about black women. She merely benefited from this. Sound familiar? And then there is Derek, who left black girl Nikki because she had issues. She was too much. Now, white Sarah with her daddy issues and identity crisis and grief from her mom and lack of cultural understanding wasn't too much to handle, but black Nikki's life was too much for him to handle. Or maybe it's that society told Derek that even if white Sarah did have the same caliber of baggage as black Nikki or more, it was still a privilege for a black man to have a white woman because slavery. So he'd better suck it up if He wanted the societal benefits of being accepted into white society. Note, Derek was gunning for the Ivy Leagues and not an HBCU because that defines prestige according to white America. And he did. But not only did he endure Sarah's tragedies, but he outrightly and viciously condemned Nikki, who he'd loved at one point, his sister, who was always supporting him, and physically attacked, his very best friend Malachi, for standing up to his white princess. This was not noble. Love doesn't make you turn your back on the very people who built up your black ass. And definitely not for a stranger.

SPEAKER_05 44:45

All right. So that was a mouthful, but what does this commentary do to you now that you couldn't name at 16?

SPEAKER_01 44:53

I kind of feel like it was all um media in that in that time. And I, as a white person, just that was just like normal. I never questioned it, which I know sounds terrible to say out loud, but that was like my teenage reality. I saw it all and I thought, yeah, Derek has to go to Ivy League, that's the best thing. I thought, you know, that Nikki's comments about white girls being the problem was bullshit.

SPEAKER_02 45:23

Like I was Yeah, it's funny. I I did not see liked what Nikki said in the movie as a teenager because I understood what she meant. Like it's you're it's white girls like you that's the problem. Like I felt that. But I also was rooting for Derek to get into Georgetown. Like, you know, and I felt like the um, you know, the scene with the gang stuff is blurry to me, like with uh Freder and like all that stuff, but you know, just seeing that he could end up in trouble, like you know, the his friend ended up being arrested, or he could go to become a doctor. You know, I was rooting for him to not, you know, end up in trouble or whatever. I don't remember that that whole story very well, but so yeah, I felt Nikki, I felt Chenille. Um, and I liked that those comments were made because they're true, but I still bought into some of the the other stuff.

SPEAKER_05 46:29

Yeah, what was wild about this that she wrote that I never quite connected, but like felt was the part where she says Nikki was too much, but Sarah was not. Right. And I'm like, I never thought that either that right there is that white supremacy, like masked as like, no, but this is the better route for you, kind of thing. That like right. There you go. Don't you just worry, you know. Um, so that part really, when I read that article, I was like, wow, she really did a good job of like naming and pointing out that undertone there. Um, that is so subtle in our society. So anyway, um, I'm gonna go along with what you were saying, Steph, about like rooting for him to go to Georgetown because this is uh the conversation I couldn't stop thinking about at 1 a.m.

Code Switching And Double Consciousness

SPEAKER_05 47:27

Sarah walks into Derek's world, his neighborhood, his school, his culture, and nobody asks her to change. She's a little fish out of water at first, sure, but she's never asked to code switch. She never has to worry about how she sounds, how she walks, whether she'll be seen as a threat. Now flip it. Derek is going to Georgetown. He is now the one crossing into a white elite academic world, and every single day he has to decide: do I code switch today? Do I shrink? Do I perform to be acceptable? W.E.B. Du Bois called this double consciousness, the sensation of seeing yourself through the eyes of a racist society, the exhausting experience of existing as two people at once. Derek is going to live that every day for of his future. Sarah gets to be one person always. In the end, life works out for the whites for white Sarah. She gets into Juilliard using black dances she learned from black people, and she gets the one black dude in the movie who had a future. This reminded me of a book we all know and love, The Hate You Give. In The Hate You Give, Star Carter lives in a black neighborhood, but goes to a white private school. She describes choosing every word carefully, pronouncing them right, never letting anyone think she is ghetto. Her whole family doesn't. Her mom uses her other voice on the phone. Her dad gives the kids specific instructions before they leave the house. And this is like one of the like best quotes of the book. It's dope to be black until it is not. This is Sarah's entire character arc in nine words. She got to enjoy blackness, the music, the dance, the culture. Derek, without ever having to carry any of the weight of it, um, and Derek had to without ever without having to carry any of the weight of it, sorry. And the movie called this a love story. So, what movie, cinema, popular cultural references now give us a healthy look at interracial marriage and how do they do this without sacrificing the dignity of the black lead? You know, now that we like can see all this happening in society, you know, this is how I started the episode of like, I feel like we all rooted for them, like for the love story, you know, but when we unpack the interracial uh challenges that, or when we unpack the challenges that, or not challenges, when we unpack the critical conversations that interracial relationships should have, like, was this really a love story? Um, and do we have any better representations of interracial love stories in popular culture that we could refer to?

SPEAKER_02 50:12

I never felt like this movie was a love story. Like I know that they had like there was the dating aspect of it, but like they don't end up together. Like I always thought think that to myself. Like at the end, he's going to Georgetown, she's going to Juilliard. Like they're not, they don't stay together.

SPEAKER_05 50:33

And so Is that like is that like stated or is that just like implicit?

SPEAKER_01 50:38

But I just but I always felt like so, but I know what you're saying.

SPEAKER_02 50:42

Like I always felt um like aw, like it's like the summer before everybody like moves. But they both got their so I felt like it didn't end feeling like they're gonna get married and be together.

SPEAKER_05 50:59

It looks like they were in the tension, the tension and the plot of the story is about their love because we're each of them falling for each other. I mean, that's the whole drama with like Nikki and all that stuff. That's where the tension builds.

SPEAKER_02 51:13

Yeah, for sure. But I felt like the their relationship didn't survive, is is how I always felt about their relationship. So I didn't feel like I didn't feel like the relationship was on a pedestal by the end for me. By the end, I was like they both went their separate ways. I always felt like a sadness about the relationship at the end. I didn't feel like they were this special.

SPEAKER_05 51:36

I feel like they had zero chemistry.

SPEAKER_02 51:39

Yeah, I just yeah, I don't know. The love story just did not stand out to me, or it didn't, it wasn't lasting for me. So I didn't have so like I've yeah, like a little more like yeah, like um like baby and Johnny. Like it was like a moment, it was like a moment. Yeah, like you knew they weren't going anywhere after last year.

SPEAKER_01 52:04

But I think the question is more about like what is a better representation of an interracial couple in in cinema. And I don't I know I know I couldn't. I could not, I could not, I could not. Did you guys watch This Is Us? Oh, damn you guys, it was so good. The thing that I thought of was there, the story is, and spoiler alert for anyone who hasn't seen it and is still planning on it, but the plot is that it's like 80s America and this couple um has triplets, and one of the babies doesn't survive

Better Interracial Stories And Confessionals

SPEAKER_01 52:45

childbirth. And while they are in the hospital grieving the loss of one of their children, there is a black baby that was born, I think on the same day, although the the story doesn't tell that well, um, and shows up, like dropped off at the fire station or something, shows up at the hospital, needs a home. And this white couple with now two baby, two white babies, adopts the third and like goes home with their triplets. And so it's this story of like a white family with a black child and navigating that in a time where we didn't really have the tools and the words for everything that comes with that responsibility. Um, and I thought of so it it traces them all the way to modern day and this uh man played by Sterling K. Brown, you know, he becomes a grown man. He marries a black woman. And I remember like noticing that in this story where it's like he has two white siblings, he has grown up in a white household in, I think, suburban Pittsburgh or something like that. And he goes, he ends up going, I believe, to an HBCU, and that's where he like on like gets uh immersed in black culture and he ends up marrying this um black woman. And I thought that was an interesting choice that you know, despite his whole white upgreen upbringing, he did find his way into black culture and like learn that side of his story that he wasn't exposed to as a child. I don't know if that has any relevance to what we're talking about here, but it was the commingling of the two worlds in an interesting way, and he still found his way, you know, to black culture. And there's a lot in the telling of that of that couple's relationship of her teaching him about what it means to be a black person in this in this country. I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 54:45

I um when I was writing that question, I had a feeling you were gonna bring up um This Is Us. I didn't I remember that being a show that you really enjoyed. Um, and I only watched like the first season, but I something in me told me that that was gonna connect with you in that way. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 55:02

I would have been interested in your both of your takes of like how you experienced it and like if they actually did an okay job of telling the differences, but it was the first time I saw in in like a very popular, you know, piece of film or TV that like actually addressed some of the challenges of being black in our society in a way that felt more authentic to me than say the last dance or something like that. So I don't know if any of our black listeners could well.

SPEAKER_05 55:36

I think I remember his dad like coming into the picture too, like later on in his life, and they flash back to like his memories. I think they did do a good job of like flashing back to like what it's like to grow up black in a suburban neighborhood during that time. And I remember it being well done and yeah, the tenderness between um him and his wife. So um I do remember that. I just fully didn't commit to the show, so I don't feel like I have enough of a commentary but um or opinion on it. But um, this is very long, so we're gonna wrap it up here. Do you guys have any confessionals that you want to share with our listeners before we pivot to the close out?

SPEAKER_01 56:16

I think my confessional probably applies to most of my relationship with the two of you in general, which is that I grew up in a white family in white suburbia and experienced the world from a you know white point of view. And um this conversation has made me see a movie that I cherished as a teenager uh in a very different way. And it just makes me realize like constantly how much work I have to do to un undo all that subliminal messaging that I had my whole life, and it's it takes a lot of work and it's never going to end up.

SPEAKER_05 56:58

I think you and like 85% of millennials would agree with what you just said.

SPEAKER_01 57:08

Well, I worry that not 85% would agree, you know, that they don't recognize the level of depth that has been uh like brainwashed into us over. I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 57:24

I'd go back to that, I'd go back to that video we started in the beginning with and look at the comments and the likes and see. I think I think we'd be surprised. What about this death? I hope I hope you're right. That's a very class.

SPEAKER_02 57:37

That article, like the quote that I read, like Nikki was right, Chanel was right. Um and like knowing that they were right, I did know that they were right in what they were saying then, and but was like very comfortable with and felt like it was okay with how dismissive people were with that. Like, and it just had to be. And I was like, like I never really thought about that. I never thought about the fact that like they made a bold state statement, we just glossed over it. And it was in the movie just went on, and Sarah was the girl, and yes, in it, and that was it. It's like you just say it out loud and nothing is done about it or addressed about it.

SPEAKER_05 58:24

Yeah, and none of them got awards for it, right? Like Julia S is the one who gets the awards for it, you know. Like it it reminds me of what you were saying with um Zoe Zaldania and Center Stage. This is my confessional of like, you know, I have to be it relates to everything you guys were both just saying of like I have to be very careful about how like white supremacy seeps into my mindset because like I remember walking away from this movie, like being like, I can't stand Carrie Washington. Like, I just because of the character, you know. Um or like I didn't give her a props, you know, like I didn't give her a props. I liked her character. Um and I've always loved Zoe Saldania. I thought I, you know, but like also same, like with Center Stage, like I didn't give that performance like its due diligence, and then now look at them being, as you so poignantly pointed out, Steph, is like they're more successful than any of these other actors or actresses in the film. And one of that is Shonda Rhimes, like thank you, Shonda Rhimes, for giving us Carrie Washington and Scandal and elevating her blackness and centering blackness um for us. That's an interracial oh fits, yeah. Okay, we can unpack that a little bit more one season.

SPEAKER_02 59:49

Oh, there's a lot of issues there, though.

SPEAKER_05 59:51

There's a lot of issues there. It is scandalous, and I love it. And I would love to do an episode on scandal or like, yeah, on Shonda Rhimes and that. That would be fun. But not for today because we're already at an hour and a half. We talked a lot on this one, but I'm happy that we did. Um, here's what I want us to carry out of today.

Takeaways And Closing Requests

SPEAKER_05 1:00:10

Nostalgia is powerful, it softens things, it makes up, it makes us accept what we'd never accept cold. And sometimes the most important thing we can do is go back, look at what we were handed, and decide do we still want to hold on to this? So we forfeited this one. We will try to be better next week, Karen's, when we look at diet fads of the 90s. Until then, go touch grass, grass, call your mom and mind your business. We love you for listening. Hey, bitches, that's a wrap on another episode of You Can Call Me Karen. If you liked what you heard or didn't, go to our show page and leave a review. Just know we will call you out. And if unlike my two co-hosts, you find yourself scrolling endlessly on TikTok, follow us in at you can call me Karen. And if you're still living in the 20th century like a boomer, don't worry. You can find us on Instagram and YouTube and you can call me Karen Linders or we love you for listening.