Welcome And Trigger Warning

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of You Can Call Me Karen. This week we are discussing the P. Diddy documentary on Netflix called Sean Combs The Reckoning. For those that are millennials and grew up in the 90s, I think a lot of these events will feel very familiar to you. And for those that are less familiar, please be aware that this is my trigger warning. We will be discussing violence, sexual assault, and things, other things of that nature. So listen carefully or skip this if you uh may be triggered by those topics. We also discuss a couple of quite non-controversial Karen stories this week. I think we all tended to agree. Um so buckle up, and here we go.

Meet The Hosts And Warm Open

SPEAKER_03 1:10

And a yellow one and the little and the box and the green.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of You Can Call Me Karen. This is Karen, and I'm joined by my two millennial co-hosts, Steph and Manny. Say hello. Hi.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

It's time to get loud. It's time to represent Karen. Steph, what time is it?

Wicked’s Villain As Peak Karen

SPEAKER_02 1:40

I was ready for OSU, but okay. I mouthed OSU as well. We were there together. Okay, so this week we are covering the P Diddy. She just went way on with it. Yeah. Listen, I got shit to do, girl. We have stuff to talk about. Perfect. This week we are covering the P. Diddy documentary on Netflix. And for our loyal listener or listeners, you'll know we need to do one thing before we get to Diddy. And that is this week, ladies, who you calling, Karen?

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Who are you calling, Karen? I will go first. Okay. My Karen is so over like the holiday break. Um one night Steve was out of town for visiting a friend. And so I had kind of a girl day with Quinn. But one thing that I knew in my head I wanted to do was once Quinn went to bed, I was gonna go ahead and splurge and rent um Wicked for Good. Because I'd seen Wicked, but hadn't seen For Good yet. And it's still in the theater now, but I just um Steve doesn't do musicals, and I just was like, when will I ever get to see it? So it's like Steve doesn't do musicals. No, he does not. And yeah. I thought I liked him. I put Quinn to bed and rented Wicked for Good, which I loved. Like, oh my gosh. It was wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 3:15

I haven't seen it yet, but I will. That is actually one movie that I will.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

Oh my gosh. It was wonderful. But my so then my Karen of the Week then is Madame Morable. She is such trash. I was just like so angry with her. Cause like obviously, obviously, Wicked has a lot of relevancy and depth because of what it represents in like the oppression and the labeling and the othering. And the images that they use to label Alphabet as wicked is very triggering for me because looking at it from the perspective of just, you know, you know, after just in the United States, and there's lots of articles that look just like that, making black people look to be scary and whatever. And so and I know that's the point, you know, hopefully that's the point of the movie is how easily, you know, the message can propaganda is what that is. And she just was so like she would so elegantly deliver like the most awful lines, you know, like and she would just be like, like, like there was the scene when a hobot like comes flying in and she's like wicked, wicked, the wicked witch of the West is here. And you know, and I'm just like you or like it just reminded me of those like Karen phone calls when like the one where she was like, I'm being attacked, you know. I'm like, Madam Horrible, you are King Karen. You are you're an actress, like like the character Madame Horrible, obviously the actress is playing a woman, but I'm saying Madame Morrible is hyping up and creating something, and she knows Alphaba. You know what I mean? And she knows what she is capable of, and because Alphaba was not doing what she wanted her to do, she villainized her. Preach on it. Anyway. Are you what? She said, Preach on it.

SPEAKER_02 5:34

So anyway, that's my I was like, yeah, as I just had to Google her to make sure I was thinking of the right character because I it's been about a year since I saw the first um Wicked. And I never saw or maybe I did read Wicked, so I must have known this name, but I forgot the name Morrible is like literally the word horrible. Horrible. I'm like, it's a little on the nose, but morable is horrible. Yeah, yeah. That's a good one. She is the ultimate Karen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

For sure. Um, there, I might reference them in this um episode, but there is a new podcast that I sent you guys called Diabolical Lies that unpacks it's not about like what we were just talking about. I just want to give them a shout-out because they did such a wonderful job, but they uncover like a lot of things with Wicked in regard to like body image and body shaping and body positivity.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Um I just wanted to give them a shout-out because I forgot you shared that and I'm literally adding it to my library now.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

So yeah, diabolical lies in the episode was is there a skinny apocalypse in Hollywood? And that's all I can think about with Wicked right now. Like I don't know that it just the way that they the research that they did. Again, I think I might reference something in here. It made me think about a conversation that we'll have today with the patriarchy. And I don't know, I just it was a fabulous episode. So if you're looking for a new podcast to get into Diabolical Eyes, came highly recommended on my TikTok algorithm.

Christopher Columbus Put On Trial

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Well, I will be listening to that one for sure.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Okay, so my Karen, I'm going back. It's another Chad, but I'm going all the way back.

SPEAKER_02 7:25

You love your Chads, by the way. I uh I very much appreciate that. Thanks. As a white woman named Karen, I appreciate that it's a Chad from time to time.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Well, I was looking through my list and I was like, oh, I want to share this one. I think you guys will really appreciate it. So we're gonna go all, and and this is like probably there's probably something here, but we're gonna go all the way back to the 1600s. Whoa. And my Chad is Christopher Columbus. Period.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Period.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

And I'm gonna tell you how this came to be on my Karen list that I keep on my notes app. So I was observing a student teacher who was doing a lesson on Christopher Columbus, and she decided to take a really big risk and do um like put Christopher Columbus on trial. And she divided the kids in half, and some of them were for and some of them were against, like, gave them articles that they had to find within the article, like whether you're for Columbus coming into America and colonizing America, or whether you're against it. And the reason why I loved this so much is because, oh, and there were people in the middle who were the jurors, which also, oh my God, look at all these synchronicities today with like P. Diddy and the trial and all that. But uh so there were also students in the middle who were the jurors who were supposed to hear both sides and like come up with a verdict on whether or not him colonizing was, you know, good for the world or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

This is an excellent lesson.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Yes. Very so this was her second observation. She hasn't even fully taken over the classroom yet. She had only been halfway taken. Yes, she is premier. Like, she I know, and that's what I told her. I was like, you're gonna be excellent. I'm like, keep going, keep going. There are obviously things we can tweak and refine, but the fact that that was the heart of the lesson, I was like, yes. So, anyway, so she has these kids in the middle who are supposed to listen. And, you know, she told me that she has a lot of, they're very good at verbal processing, but their written work is not that strong. So she wanted this to be the prerequisite to some writing. And what she found was by doing that, some of her, I don't want to say lower level, but like some of her not as strong writers were able to articulate very high level dialogue in the conversation. And let me just tell you, one of the students, what she said to the pro-Columbus people. She said, You said that Christopher Columbus coming over here was good because he gave them civilization. What makes you think they were uncivilized to start with? What grade is this class? Uh, it was ninth grade. Wow. Yeah. She said, what makes you think they were uncivilized to start with? Zang. Let's go. Blew my mind. I was like, yes, this is exactly the conversation that we're having right now. And it's so important that a ninth grader like expressed that. Someone who normally doesn't talk in class was able to like make that connection of wait, hold up. Who are you to say that that tight knows? I wonder how civilization.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

I wonder if this is like one of those classes that that girl or all of the students will remember. You know, like I have certain classes, certain high school experiences that stuck with me. And I can think very specifically about like this teacher, this class, this topic, whatever. And there's only a few of them. It feels like this is one of those where and it's really cool that it's coming from a student teacher. It's not even like their full-time exactly educator. It's so cool.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

That's why to Stephani's point, we were like, wow, you know, because that's the kind of stuff that you can't really teach. You can't come to that on her own is pretty incredible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So to witness that as like a mentor, I was like, and also Christopher Columbus, you are the first Chad to ever step foot in the Americas that we know of. Documented. History has its eyes on you.

SPEAKER_02 11:56

What is the oh, I think Michael Che does a bit about Karen's like white women coming into neighborhoods. Oh it's this is it. He could he's like, if you if you want to solve the challenges in the Middle East, just send in a bunch of white ladies on a Starbucks and they're they're gonna come in and be like, This is mines now. This is mine now, yeah. And I feel like that was the Christopher Columbus. He showed up and he was like, This is mines now. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Yeah, it's a great bit. Oh my gosh. I love that she did that because when I taught eighth grade English, the team I was on, the social studies teacher, eighth grade history is US history. And so she and I would partner a lot because um something our eighth graders have to do is like DBQs or document-based. Did you are you you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, but no, it stands for document-based questions. Query or questions? Document-based questions. So sometime so sometimes we would pick one of the DBQs that they were doing in social studies, and then I could take it and turn it into like an argumentative essay. So we'd like kind of work together. I love that. And one of the things that we did was Christopher Columbus, and we would take a look at, you know, articles written by Christopher Columbus, or like him like declaring what you know he's found and done, but then look at like I don't have there's a picture book that looks at his coming to America through the eyes of Native Americans. And like, and so you use those two pieces of evidence to argue is he, I can't remember what the question was, but it was something to the effect of like, was he a hero? Hero or villain, yeah. Hero or villain. Yeah, and so but the trial and you know, kind of making them take the evidence and ride with it and whether they agreed or not, that's cool. I like that. Yeah, yeah, that's really cool.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Yeah, similarly, I saw something on I sent this to her after you made two points that I know we we probably have to wrap up on this, but like um I talked to her about that what we call in education, like that horizontal integration of like bringing in the English teacher into like helping, like you don't as a social studies teacher have to be the one to teach writing. Like that's where you collaborate with somebody else on your grade level and like you share resources in that capacity, which I love. I think that's like the key to unlocking like like making education better if we did more horizontal and vertical integration. But also I saw on threads similarly to that like hero versus villain, a woman did like, you know, like those like almost like crime scene silhouettes where you like outline your body, right? So she had her students kind of like outline their body and then they like put half, they drew a line down the middle, and like half of it was like colonized versus um colonizer kind of thing, where like half of the body was like of the person who colonized, and like other was of the people who were colonized by that like region. It was really fascinating visual of like this is the complete story. It's not just about the people who came and colonized the region, you know, it's also about the people who were existing there prior to and what did they look like, you know, and what's their humanity behind that? So anyway, thanks for letting me go down that.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

Oh, and the book was called Encounter. Sorry, look it up if you've never seen it. The picture book is called Encounter, and it's beautiful picture book through the lens of Native Americans. Sorry, I didn't mean to like, but it's beautiful. I wrote it down.

Send Us Your Karen Stories

SPEAKER_02 15:42

Yay! Um, this conversation made me think of I know I've talked about revisionist history before, Malcolm Gladwell. Malcolm Gladwell, if that's right, right? Yes. Anyways, a lot of this discussion makes me think of all of the work he does to unpack historical events that are not, you know, that were taught only from the eyes of the conqueror. And so he kind of brings in a different angle, and it's always fascinating. So for our listeners who are looking for another good podcast and haven't come across that one by some miracle, there you go. All right. So I think it is time to turn from our Karen's and talk about another, maybe Karen.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

You just heard our Karen stories, but we can't be the only ones. If you've had a Karen or Chad encounter or confessional, you've been a Karen yourself. We'd love to hear from you. Wherever you listen, click on the link in our show notes and text us your Karen stories.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

So this week we are talking about the Diddy documentary on Netflix.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

Um as many of you say the real name of it because there's been a couple that when I went to go search for it, I was like, what it's called The Reckoning. It's P. Diddy The Reckoning, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:04

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, let me just make sure. Yeah. Sean Combs The Reckoning is what it's called. Yeah. Yes. So this is a documentary that is produced by 50 Cent, Fitty Cent, if you will, who certainly has an agenda. And I sent you both, I'm going on a little tangent here, but I sent you both a very short YouTube video, which I will also link here that does a very quick what the hell is uh is Fitty's problem with Diddy. And because I didn't know either, but I know he's been trolling Diddy for like years. And 50 Cent is like the king of holding a grudge and doing a good job with it. And this video basically sums it up as when 50 Cent like came onto the scene, he was huge. If you remember, I think it was my freshman year of college, and it was like in the club. That album was everything. It was like 50.

SPEAKER_03 18:01

I love 50. Yeah.

What The Documentary Leaves Out

SPEAKER_02 18:03

Well, yeah, he's also from Chicago too, right? So, like that. No, I think he's from Atlanta. He's not a Chicago guy. We have R. Kelly. Whoops. And Common and Chance the Rapper. We've got a good little crew, but not 50. Anyways, um, this video basically just sums it up as like when 50 came on the scene, Diddy was like, I can't have somebody not like somebody who's at the top of the game not be part of my circle. So he called him up to try to like hang. And I don't, I'm not gonna do this story justice, but essentially what it is is 50 was like, he made me feel uncomfortable. He wanted, he was asking me really weird questions. I was getting really bad vibes, and so not interested. Like from that point forward, he was just he didn't trust him, he didn't like him. He said he made him feel uncomfortable. And I'm like, damn, he's got a good judge of character back. Um, which Chappelle does a bit about that as well, which we'll get to. But anyways, it is important to keep in mind that 50 Cent is the one who produced this doc because clearly he does have an agenda and he was focused on that. So always important to keep that in mind. But I do feel like he did a good job of finding very credible witnesses, demonstrating a long history and pattern of behavior, and even using footage that was commissioned by Diddy in the days leading up to his arrest. So he was using footage that Diddy was like well aware of, you know, and had paid for. Um, so it was like using his own receipts against him. This doc was fascinating to understand the person he was when not in front of a camera or not in front of a camera that he didn't think he had control over. And it seemed to corroborate a lot of the stories that have come out in recent years about his pattern of abuse, his short-temperedness, his desire to get to the top no matter the cost or who got in his way, and even capitalizing on people's humanity and death, which is which I thought the documentary did a really good job of bringing to life. So, overall, I think no major surprise surprises with this doc, but it did show a pattern of consistent behavior throughout his life and his career. I I don't know if you two had a view of his childhood before this. I felt the stories about his childhood were particularly interesting. They humanized him, which I thought was an interesting approach to take at the very start of this documentary, which is clearly about making him a villain. Um, and it definitely did a good job of like laying the groundwork for why he is the person that he is today. Overall, though, and I want your reactions and takes as well. I I felt like it left me wanting more, the documentary as a whole. I felt like they breezed over other celebrity involvement and these like so-called freak-offs, where uh, you know, that's what led to all of the like salacious headlines and and things that we think of now when it comes to his arrest and his trial. There were a few celebrities that were that were like would talk about being at these parties, but not part of these freak-offs, and uh, and they, you know, they were questioned or like little clips of interviews with them were highlighted. But I'm like, where's all the hot gas around these freak-offs and all the baby oil? And like, where is all of that? Uh and it didn't it was like literally very minor references to throughout this four-part series. But yeah, I don't know. Any reactions there? Do you feel the same or what what Did how did you feel about that bit? There was a lot in what you just said. I just mean, broadly speaking, did you feel fulfilled by this documentary or do you feel like anything was missing?

SPEAKER_00 22:19

I felt like um to answer your question about like are you saying that you were hoping or thought that this would get more into the parties and and attendance of the headlined kind of things that were surrounding. Then yeah, I don't feel like it really skimmed over that. That last episode that showed all the baby oil that was found does not match like what the news was saying about how much baby oil and like so I just felt like I wanted to know like it just brought it up and it was almost like you already heard about this. We were not really gonna get into it.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

But I wonder if it's more that there's so many people involved in the freak-offs that like that would yeah increase yeah, legality for him to put that in there than what yeah. That's where I'm going exactly.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

It felt like because I when I see those headlines, I don't feel like I because I feel like he did is known for throwing parties, and I feel like anybody who's anybody went to his parties, and that doesn't necessarily mean that they were involved in you know, you know, some of the you know more abusive and like you know, eccentric and outside of the box, you know, sexual interactions just because you're at a party hosted by Diddy, like his famous white party. Um, you know, people are like, well, Leonardo DiCaprio was there and so and so was there. But I'm like, I imagine everybody was there. Like you break you brought up Chappelle, like he's like, I've been to his house, like, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you are you know participating, participating in some of the things that like you know Cassie outlines in her testimonies and stuff, and you know, some of the more dark things that were happening.

SPEAKER_02 24:10

So and to your point, Manny, it was probably like a legal decision where they're like, we're not gonna throw a bunch of people's names out here without the receipts, or you know, or they didn't want to, you know, pay for all the legal fees that would ensue as a result. But I think that is something just to keep in mind. Like, I do I do believe that Sean Combs is kind of a monster and did some really terrible things, but it was very clear that 50 Cent in producing this documentary was focused exclusively on him and almost intentionally kept other major celebrities' names out of it. And so I just feel like there's more to the story. I feel like in watching this, I was like, ugh, like now I need to know the rest. So that's how I maybe.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

I just think, you know, in the beginning of every episode, I did not want more. I mean, four episodes, four hour-long episodes on one person is a lot of consumption for stuff that doesn't directly involve me. But I think at the beginning of every episode and at the end of every episode, he was making the point that this is what he's on trial for. And so they were trying to show and illustrate the crime from that perspective. He's not on trial for the freak-offs, you know, he's not on trial for the parties.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

So I think that that played into the storytelling of and I gotta say too, like when I was watching, I think with the where this where the documentary started and the trajectory of like like the chronicling of Diddy's rise to fame and you know the internship and into the this, into the that. So I wasn't I wanted more about his life. Like I felt like once it it got it was very detailed up until about 1999 and that club shooting where J Lo was there, and I just wanted them to chronicle more. Like I wanted more about the hit the continued trajectory. I feel like it went from there straight to 2025, and I was like, whoa, why go back. I want more about the middle that I felt like that's what I wanted. Um I feel like at that point they bounced around a little bit.

TikTok Narratives And The Algorithm

SPEAKER_02 26:33

Yeah, so I got a little confused too. Yeah, yeah. Like, I don't want to spend the whole time here today beating up whether this was a good production or not, because I think the content itself was fascinating. And as I mentioned before, I think they found some really credible people to talk about who Diddy was growing up and in his early career days. And it speaks a lot to like his character and the type of psychology, I guess, that you're dealing with, which I thought was really fascinating and just you know further solidifies that it's not coincidental that all of the things that happened around him happened, you know, like he was he he clearly was an instigator of everything. Okay, so let's I I have a number of questions that I kind of want to tackle. So let's start with just one thing that stood out to you or one thing you didn't know before watching this, and let's try to keep it to one because I've got a bunch more I'd like to cover.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

I can get us going if you need, but if you have thoughts, like I think what shocked me at the end, and Luke and I had like we were both like, what it was in episode four when that one journalist came in and she was describing what the journalistic experience was like in the courtroom, and how Diddy had a team of people who were trying to like paint a different narrative, and then what so my like big shock there was like then the clips of people on TikTok who bought into that and like I was like, I did not see any of that in my algorithm when this was happening, and so I was like, this is just like another example of like my algorithm is like curated to like my which is really scary, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:31

On both sides of that equation, it's really scary.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

Yeah, I was like, I had no idea that people were like actually rooting for him during this part point, yeah. I was so surprised by that. I don't know why. I guess there's always gonna be people who are, but he has a lot of like yes men in his corner.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

Very calculated, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

And so like that like level of calculation that it even seeped into like this social media where people were like saying free diddy, like I did not see any of that, and I was so surprised to see that at the end of the documentary.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

Yeah, I um I know you said to pick one, so I'm gonna pick one, but I have several things that sub that I didn't know or that I was surprised by. This is hard to pick one, but the one I'm gonna go with was I was really surprised to see him partying with his sons like that. I know. Like and it made me feel like those boys like are like it's like an abusive situation there.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

Oh, yeah, you know, I was shocked. I didn't I didn't think that. I thought this is the generational cycle. Like that's why they oh like when they planted that brainwashed when they planted in the beginning about like the pimp, the like like that style of like what was the it's not like a dandy, but like dandyism or whatever. Like, like I thought that that was like a generational cycle of like this is how our family's lineage is. Yeah, well, and they're nicely sick to my stomach.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

They didn't outright say it about his childhood, but they were like alluding to the parties that his mom would have and the people that were around and what he was witnessing as a kid. And it is like that clear.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

Yeah, like I thought that was just a part of like this is how our family, this is like normal for our family. Like, I didn't think that they were abused by any means.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

I think that they But don't you think Diddy was abused, like the exposure and the young age, like it's not abused, abusive, like direct, but it's like when you have early exposure, like you know, I've seen you know, students like exposed to way more than they should have at a young age, and how that can be traumatic and informative. And now he instead of like breaking the cycle, you know, he is doing the same thing, like exposing his kids, which is a form of abuse for sure.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

I mean, it is yeah, like those kids are those kids have trauma and but they don't know they don't maybe they don't necessarily know yet that that is traumatic, the experiences that they've lived through. And then the you know, they allude to him and his son. They allege, you know, that him and his son shot that one guy who's still like unidentified, or at least in the documentary was unidentified in the recording studio. And it's like, yeah, this is a cycle of abuse. So I maybe maybe abuse isn't the right word, but those, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

I know that's something that I'd love to find a different word for abuse, but it's a good placeholder right now. I just I can't fully connect because there's a there's several other victims in here who I feel like I don't want to victimize Sean and his sons um this in that way yet. And I don't know why I feel constrained around that, but like I feel like there's a I don't feel I feel there's a different name for it, but abuse is a good placeholder. I I can settle for abuse as the word here. I'm just not sure. I know what you mean.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

I hear what you're saying. I hear what you're saying, Mini, but I feel like I feel like like what Karen said at the beginning, where the fact that Diddy was humanized at the beginning and you're kind of seeing how he was raised and things that that happened, and you know, even just the discussion of his mom, you know, beating him and them fighting and you know, that kind of stuff, it does and I see what you're saying, is like there are actual victims and they were abused and they were, you know, all that kind of stuff. And Diddy is the is the culprit and he is in prison and should be and all that kind of stuff. And but I d it like what's still what stood out to me was seeing that cycle continue with his kids, and yeah, and I didn't expect that. I didn't expect to see his kids as part of as part of what he was up to.

SPEAKER_02 33:19

Yeah. I'm glad that you said that though, because I there was they didn't even address it. Like they kept referencing, I can't remember his one son's name, but Justin. Justin. Justin Combs. They kept referencing Justin Combs, but they never actually outright said that is his son. And I kept being like, is this his son? Like in the room with him when he's talking about things he's done with women, and like there's just like the boundaries have like so many boundaries felt crossed to me that I I should have Googled it, but I kept questioning like this king, maybe it's just a coincidence that this guy has the last name, the same last name, because it's so gross to me to be just the other son too, is there? Yeah, there was two of them, right? And a lot of the video.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

Sorry, I know we had to move on, but I just want to rebuttal for a second. Like, I know you guys didn't watch Game of Thrones, so this reference is probably gonna go over your head. But for our listener who might not be Brie or Mag, who might understand the Game of Thrones reference, it reminds me of the empire like that they are building, like almost similar, very similar to the Kardashians. Like these people have built this reality for themselves, and they like I don't know, like it's rooted in evil, you know, like just the continuation of building the empire for power is why I don't want to attach abuse to them. I I don't I can't like abuse the language to but abuse is what we see. That's why I was like, there's no whatever is his psychosis, there's not a name for it in the DSM yet. But like obviously, yes, there's some way that he took like what he saw as a child and then internalized it. Internalized it into this monstrous. But like, I just think about like kings and queens here and like fictional stories of like, but that's like the birth of like an evil empire, you know? And like we don't go around like saying, Oh, but they're an evil empire because they were abused as a kid.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

We're like, no, you're an evil empire, and then you know, like chicken or egg. Like we don't know what came first. Are they that way because of the abuse they experience? Oh, it's like um villain origin story. Yeah, yeah. It's the villain origin story. We have gotten to a different but I I think it's I do think that is an important part of the discussion because you have to end that cycle in order for you know for that abuse to stop and for the victim list to stop growing. And so you do have to at some point address the fact that like these people are the way that they are for a reason. And if we stop that reason, then we can start healing, if that makes sense. But at some point they are responsible, right? Like at some point they are adults and they are responsible for their actions. Just also there is a causation for you know why they are the way that they are. I don't know. It's very tricky.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

I get you. I think, yeah, I feel like like I don't I don't like the word uh abuse either, but I do feel like there's this like crazy darkness, darkness, and acceptability of really horrible behavior that he has now instilled in his children is okay, which means it'll keep happening, which means it'll keep happening for sure.

Turning Tragedy Into A Brand

SPEAKER_02 37:01

Okay, so let's move past to that one for now. So I do want to talk about how with Diddy's like rise to fame, he made large strides every time there was a tragedy surrounding him. And I'm curious, first of all, I'm sure you noticed that correlation, but did you notice that if you think back to our younger selves when he was coming up in, you know, his name was starting to be known? Did you notice it at that time that it was like the charity basketball event and suddenly we know who Puff Daddy is and Tupac's murder, you know, and suddenly there's a weird dialogue with Diddy in you know, in those goings-ons. And then, of course, when Biggie was killed and he did that, you know, whoa, missing you song, and he was on the Grammys and he was all in white and all over the stage and MTV, by the way. Oh, it was on MTV. I'm sorry. I should have known that. Yeah. So, like, any thoughts or reactions about how he used these tragedies um to kind of get himself to the top, essentially?

SPEAKER_00 38:16

Um, I feel like when at the time I definitely bought into the fact that Diddy was and Biggie were best friends. And they said that in the documentary, and I always thought that they were best friends, like from in the 90s, like when I was in at that time. So, and so like the because when when this when this documentary released, my algorithm on social media just showed a lot of people imitating Diddy on stage at the MTV awards singing missing you, and like that chunk step that he was doing, and he's like twirling around, and it was just so many people like imitating that, and I saw so many meme videos. And at the time when I was seeing that now, I was like cracking up like he really was twirling around after this. His best friend, his quote unquote best friend was killed. And um, and when Steve and I were watching the documentary and that clip came up on TV, on our TV, and Steve was like, Wow, he's really just up there twirling. I was like, Yes, he is just up there twirling, and so I feel like that right there was like a like a snap moment where I was taking myself back to you know middle school, early high school stuff, and you know, 42-year-old stuff. Like, that's wild. Like, you know, kind of kind of Erica Kirk.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

I was just about to say that.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:49

Yes, great parallel. Although we recognize it today. Yeah, you know, there is a dialogue today about Erica Kirk and how weird all of this is. And I don't feel like in the 90s we were noticing, like everyone was like, you know, Sean Combs is grieving the loss of his best friend, and he's made this beautiful song in dedication to him, and like weird. Weird that we didn't notice it was weird, you know. But the 90s were a weird time.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

I mean, hindsight is always 50-50, right? Like, I mean, they had Faith Hill, his wife. 2020. 35, 35, 100 babies.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

I was debating of letting that go, but I think I needed to. Sorry, 20. Hindsight is always 50-50.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

You know, flip a coin, but you had Faith Hill, you had Sting, you had all these other celebrities that were involved in it. The cover-up was so good. Like, how would we ever question any of that? First, and also sidebar, that was my first concert that I ever went to, P. Diddy in the family. Really? Whoa. Oh no, I had the t-shirt to prove it. Nice.

SPEAKER_02 41:12

That's a fun icebreaker question. What is your first concert? Yeah, wow. Old school.

SPEAKER_00 41:20

Yes, that is you say, I think you said faith.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

Faith, sorry, faith at Evans. God, what is wrong with me?

SPEAKER_02 41:27

Come back to reality and hindsight is 100-100. Yeah. I think the other thing, just along these lines about the way he leveraged tragedy, the other thing that they talked a lot about is the volume of shootings around Diddy and just how commonplace it was. And that's something that I know made headlines when we were young, but I can't recall if they ever if it was just like, you know, one of those probably very racist things where it was just acceptable that like in the hip-hop community there are guns and this is going to happen. Like we didn't we didn't talk about it very much. Like, I don't know. Maybe maybe your experience was different. I'm curious. I'm curious what you thought about the volume of shootings, the fact that no one was ever freaking charged for Tupac's murder and Suge's murder, and well, maybe Suge's murder. But and then that like guy in the studio that literally was never named. Like, what is that about? It's so weird. I thought Suge Knight was still alive.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

I thought he I think he's in jail for life right now or like serving a life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. His shooting, not his yeah, means that. Was Suge shot? Suge was shot at with Tupac in the car. He was shot dead.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

Yeah, but he wasn't shot, was he?

SPEAKER_02 42:57

I don't know what do you mean. I should know this, you guys. I'm the one who do you mean he wasn't raised a chair?

SPEAKER_00 43:03

He wasn't hit when he was not injured.

SPEAKER_02 43:06

He was not hit. No. Yeah, he was not injured.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

And there wasn't a separate shooting, or is there another shooting we're referring to? Like I know he was in the car with Tupac when Tupac was killed, but you said there was another shooting. Okay, that's what I was getting at. Was it there was another shooting?

SPEAKER_02 43:23

You're saying let me get let me get back to you on that. Yeah, because I don't want that to be related. Yeah. I don't, but yeah, I guess curious, like why you think it was so acceptable.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

They're operating as like gangsters. Like I think that that's like the persona. I don't know. I think.

Violence, Power, And Gang Persona

SPEAKER_00 43:44

Yeah, I here's what I think. Cause when I was in high school in like the in like the whole East versus West and like gangster rappers and gangster rap and all that kind of stuff, what my perception was was that. They rap they wrote about what they experienced. But my understanding, I thought that once they got these deals and actually had money and you know could tell their stories, that they weren't still acting like that, or like still engaging in, you know, these shootouts and like you know, all that kind of stuff. And so that was another thing that surprised me was that when shit went wrong to Diddy, like he would be threatening people with guns and like having that gangster like reaction, or just like the his, you know, reaching out to allegedly connections with the Crips as security when he's in California and all that kind of stuff. And I was like, I just didn't realize that the kind of gang beh like activity was still present when they had all this money and success. Is that makes sense? Like that's what I was like, because I thought from my perspective, like I would get kind of annoyed with like you know, the media perception of them being gangsters, and it's like, well, they're telling their story. Like, that's what you know, hip-hop. You talk about what your life was, but I always thought of it as past tense, and so watching the documentary, seeing that they were still kind of like caught up in that like life of like you know, live by the gun, die by the gun, you you cross me, I'm gonna meet, you know, threatening and all that kind of stuff. Like, I just didn't realize like as wealthy and status they had, they still operated like that.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

But I don't think that that I think I hear that. I hear that. I think their telling of that story, I took their telling of that part of the story is that they Puffy was Puffy and Suge were fighting to be the top executives in that space over rappers, and they withheld money from rappers intentionally so that they could be the father of hip-hop gangster music in their region. And so part of doing that came with this bravado of operating, and I think this is why they planted the seed of like how Puffy's dad was and his mom, of like the psychology of like I'm a pimp, and this is how like I uh how they act in this like 70s style gangster power, mafia-esque, yeah, yeah, and I think that that organized crime, yeah. I think that was a part of it.

SPEAKER_02 46:43

I think that's what I meant. You're you're describing something that I wasn't quite able to articulate is like all of those things are true, and in my head, it's like once you have all this fame and fortune and a whole business, you know, like a up and up business, it's not it's not organized crime at that point. I think in my brain, like, okay, so now you handle your problems like through the legal system and through business dealings, but no, they gang world is is what a lot of them, not all of them by the way, but a lot of them knew. And so that's how they solved their problems, despite the fact that they have all this fame and fortune and a huge business empire, and you know, all of those like socially accepted, you know, structures, they're still like when a conflict arises, this is how I know how to deal with it, essentially. And it didn't occur to me that even though they have risen to all of this fame, that that's the way that they solve their problems at the end of it.

SPEAKER_00 47:49

And I felt like my understanding of gangs was as a kid or high school student, and I guess even still today, was you know, people when you don't have your bare necessities, you resort to whatever like you need to get what you need, you know, like the question of like uh you know, stealing food, or you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 48:14

And I think that's poverty. I think gangs is about territory.

SPEAKER_02 48:21

Well, and weirdly, this goes back to our conversation about community, I think. Like it's what you yeah, it's your community, it's what you know, it's who it's how you have protection and support, and you know, it's who do you go to when you need something.

SPEAKER_00 48:37

It's like it's just a different definition or like a different experience than what maybe the three of us know, but yeah, it's well so like I think I guess my point was that like like when you like poverty can lead to crime when you are trying to survive, and then you turn to a gang who who's like I can't I will protect you, I will get you what you need, and the gang then becomes territorial, you're not crossing into this space kind of a thing. Yeah, you can't work with this other gang because Yeah, like I'm picturing, I'm reading I'm picturing the book like any the um what's it called? The hate you give is that what it's called? Oh yeah, right? Like it's like so again, like I guess my under s I just kind of felt like I feel like my understanding was like poverty leads to crime and then it becomes organized, and you you know commit to a gang who's gonna rep you and back you, and then gangs become territorial and it becomes like war, you know. Right. And so my thought then is when you have money and and a business and this fame and success and all that kind of stuff, then you're not really gonna resort to criminal like activity to get what you need.

SPEAKER_01 49:59

No. And I st and I think that like sorry, not no, but like But that is like the surprise at what you but I don't know why that's surprising because like white colour crime, like white affluent men commit crimes all the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 50:16

Yeah, that's that's yeah, but I felt I feel like when you say white collar crime, when you say white-collar crime, you're talking about like evading taxes and you know, laundering and like criminal. They're still what I was surprised by was that they're not doing like I'm not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01 50:35

Yeah, but I think that like this is culturally, we have to realize that like their territory is those young people who they're thinking they're going to eventually make rap.

Bad Boy Contracts And Getting Paid

SPEAKER_00 50:45

Yes, you're I'm agreeing with you. I'm saying, I'm saying that it was the aha moment for me was that they continued in the same patterns no matter what success they found, like no matter what they had, how they went about competing was the same way that they did it, you know, when they didn't have as much. And, you know, it's just like it just continued on. And I know like white colour crime, like I'm not saying white, like call crime is crime. And I'm not saying I'm surprised that you know, I'm just surprised that the type of crime, I guess, once they had money didn't change, you know, like it wasn't like I guess what I'm saying is I'm surprised that you're surprised by that. I just didn't I I think I always felt defensive of like the black community as when the painting of them being gangsters, and I felt like, shut up, like that's what they did, and now look, they made it, so leave them alone kind of a thing. And then I'm watching this documentary, and it's like, no, they didn't, it wasn't leave them alone. It's not leaving them alone. They they were still doing a lot of sh crazy shit. And I, you know, and I feel like I was kind of like, oh, I I was like when I was a kid, I was like, well, they made it and they're doing the damn thing, and shut up, like stop talling them against them. Leave them alone, leave them alone. That's where I was as a young person, and as an adult, I'm like, I could see why people were like, there's a lot of crazy shit surrounding these this East Coast, West Coast, and I hated the news call talking about East Coast, West Coast when I was in high school. I was like, shut the fuck up. Like because it you know furthers the it for yeah, like the stereotypes and I hated it like then and watching the documentary told you know, not told by 50 Cent, but he was executive produced, and he as a as a as a rapper uh was comfortable with this portrayal. I'm like, I can see why a new like what I I don't know. I just hated that I was starting to be like, oh, I can see why they would report that there's a lot of violence surround surrounding these rappers. And I didn't I don't know. I aside from Biggie and Tupac being killed, I just didn't, I think I was as blissfully unaware of anything else crazy that was going on around them. And I was just like, there's a lot of crazy stuff going on here. Like I just didn't know.

SPEAKER_01 53:07

Yeah, I know what you mean. Um, you're reminding me of an article that I read for the re I think I might have talked about this last week with the research or two weeks ago with the research I did for 1996 and how Quincy Jones like noticed that like the animosity was starting to heat up. And so he like called all the rappers at the time to have like an underground meeting, and he like had to like throw off the press and like you know, like arrange a place for them to meet, but they really actually all met at a different place, and all these rappers came together and he was trying to be like the voice, a reason of like you guys gotta stop this like East Coast versus West Coast thing. I've been in this situation before as like a music mogul, and like I want you to just know that like before anything gets so out of hand, this is like my warning to you of like we can come together, we can we can do better things with our talent than having this territorial thing, yes, and uh rivalry. And uh that's when Tupac, I guess, really like won Quincy Jones over because Tupac was like talking about I don't know, whatever, how up, you know, how intelligent he is. I and and and anyway, um and that's when Tupac was thinking about leaving Death Row Records to go in a different area, go a different direction. Um, and a lot of people left Death Row after all that happened with Sug Knight and and Diddy, you know, and I think that I think your point is I think your point is correct, but I also think it is important to note that the documentary did talk about all the people that left Bad Boy because of the they did articulate uh illustrate that that like people didn't want to be around that. And so you know it's important to know that like to note that the the I think that goes back to the core of like who Diddy is of like his like evil is the brand that people like recognize, like what you started with and left. Like like they recognized it and they were like, I can't, how many times did they say in that documentary, like I can't be around this, like I gotta leave? Like this is this is not what they want.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

And I think my perspective too, as a like when this was happening in the in the 90s was that the real if I could concede the violence and gangster, I feel like the only one was should knight. But like Diddy was just as bad, if not worse. Like, I always assumed should knight was the one who would like turned this whole community gangster. He was the villain in the villain in maybe just being like more East Coast, you know. But Diddy wasn't the only one. Yeah, Diddy was really behind a lot of it.

SPEAKER_01 55:57

Well, I think that was the narrative that they talked about in the story, right? It's like Suge Knight looks like he's like six, what? Like yeah, he's like a six five, like 300 pounds. His stance, like his grimace, like he's been in jit, you know, and like they like why people like be afraid of him. And that I think is to your point of like why it went undiscovered, is like puffy looks like puffy, you know, and like that. They talked about that a lot of like he like look, he nobody was afraid of him, you know. And so I think that that's part of this manipulation, right? Is that he was able to see that people don't see him capable of doing this kind of thing. And so while people are underestimating his ability to be evil, he's like evil, doing all this other stuff underground. He's like, What? It wasn't me. Look at me. I look like puff. I'm puffy, I'm on Ellen.

SPEAKER_02 56:51

Yeah, I'm twirling on stage.

SPEAKER_01 56:54

You know?

SPEAKER_02 56:55

Oh yeah, so okay, I know we are we can go on for hours and hours about this topic. I think where this is taking us is I think the thing I found strange was all of the people, Manny, you just referenced that were saying he was shady, I didn't feel comfortable around him, I needed to get out of his orbit, he it things were unsafe, whatever. But but none of this was ever brought to uh like the legal, you know, space, like no charges, at least early on. I don't believe charges had been pressed or like anyone were was making any like formal allegations about his behavior. People were like so many times in this documentary, people were like, I wasn't paid. I, you know, did all of these things, I had a contract and he still didn't pay me. And I'm like, why wouldn't you sue someone when you were you were payment and you didn't receive it? And that part to me was really strange. Like, I don't know if this is again one of the cultural differences, but like, yeah, when it comes to like your livelihood and your income, that to me is very clear. It's very black and white. Like, you I did a thing that you agreed to pay me for and you didn't pay me. You have not held up your end of the bargain, so I'm taking you to court. Like, I just didn't that part was weird to me. I don't know if you you feel the same or if I'm off base there, but it seemed strange that that come out that would come out so many years later.

SPEAKER_01 58:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:32

I think that happens to a lot of musical artists. Yeah. And someone's even mentioned, I thought in the documentary, like uh they were Bad Boy was very intentional about how their contracts were written in that like very pyramid scheme, like every like Diddy was the center of all things, you know, the videos. Yeah, you he he was he was paid first, you know, and yeah. He found a way to like insert himself into the state. Yeah, like if his voice was on the song, then it's kind of his song. If he appeared in your video, if he, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 59:09

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 59:11

And the contract with uh like Danity Kane and like making the band, like you have like 24 hours to like read this and sign it, or else you're not in the band.

SPEAKER_02 59:19

Like yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:21

Mm-hmm. The equivalent of that to like is I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 59:26

I was gonna say the equivalent of that today is like the voice or American Idol, like they they own those people.

SPEAKER_00 59:34

Yeah, it's uh I felt like someone in the documentary said that they had a lawyer look at their contract and they're like, Oh, it was it Babs. Babs was saying, you are definitely getting fame, not fortune. Yeah. So you have to decide like if that's what you want, but it's not gonna be money. Yeah. Right.

Wrap-Up And An Eminem Clue

SPEAKER_02 59:53

Yeah. Right. It's just crazy. Okay, we're at we're beyond time. And I feel like I have so many more questions, but let's leave it there. We didn't even talk about the victims, which I want everyone to know. We didn't talk about any of the sex stuff. So we might need to revisit this one.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:14

I think last episode 9-9 and 2000s thing to say. Rolling with my homie.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:25

Okay, so maybe that's our collective confessional for today is that yeah, we didn't even we didn't even make it to the real victims of Diddy. Yeah. Or I guess the extent of the victims that are left in his wake. So we can uh take that away and cover that in a bonus episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:44

But yes, I do have something to say because I thought you were gonna talk to us about open up for like he's disdain and stuff for like the documentary. So we all know, you know, like 50 and Eminem are boys, right? And so I referenced Rap God on our last episode. You referenced it, Karen, but I said put a pen on the line. I referenced it.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:09

Yeah, I referenced it because of Eminem and Monica Winsky mentioned it.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:14

Yes. So do you know this line that I'm about to say, Steph? Rap God.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:20

Oh, yes, yes. Oh my god, yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:23

Do you know this, Karen? I don't know. Say it, and then I might. So he says that he and he spit so fast in this song. The song is freaking amazing. He says, I'm like a, I'm like a R-A-P-E-R. Got so many S A's, huh? Wait, he didn't just spell the word rapper and leave out a P, did he?

unknown 1:01:47

Boop.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:48

So I didn't know that one.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:50

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:51

Yeah, I didn't, I didn't catch that one. And that was when did when did Rap God come out? Was that like 2024 or something? I don't know. Yeah, it wasn't too long ago.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:01

So recent. And that's what messed up my search for. I was like, Monica Lewinsky.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:12

Yeah, that one. Wait. Eminem's rap god was October 15th, 2013.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:25

Wait. Maybe this is when people are analyzing it. Okay, I see. Um because I was gonna say that felt very recent. Yeah, 2013.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:37

Of course he was way ahead of his time. Dang.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:40

I mean, that's why I was like, wait, this feels like it, yes, you're correct. 2013, October 15, 2013. Wow. Dang. They knew they knew some stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:52

Okay, we are going to call it there. Please keep listening as we explore more of the early 2000s this season. Um hope you're loving it as much as we are. And we'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:07

Hey bitches, that's a wrap on another episode of You Can Call Me Karen. If you liked what you heard or didn't, go to our show page and leave a review. Just know, we will call you out. And if unlike my two co-hosts, you find yourself scrolling endlessly on TikTok, follow us at you can call me Karen. And if you're still living in the 20th century like a boomer, don't worry. You can find us on Instagram and YouTube at you can call me Karen underscore high. We love you for listening.